syria can collapse, libya can collapse. iran may go through regime change, but they'll always be a strong persian state. >> what does that tell you about u.s. policy toward iran? >> what it tells me is that our grand strategy has to be how do we engage in a dialogue with iran. what is the path toward that. is it fighting a war with them over nuclear weapons? is it not fighting a war with them? but the endgame is a dialogue with what is probably the most significant state in the middle east where we have a lot of interests to discuss. >> so the middle east you're describing is really one where the states that are real and enduring, iran, egypt. >> tunisia. >> turkey to a certain extent. >> absolutely, turkey,y. >> those are the six -- >> because they're age-old clusters of civilization with natural borders. countries like algeria, syria, libya, jordan, were never really thought of until states until the 20 ts century. >> someone once described them as tribes with flags. >> yes. yemen is a mixed bag. even the turks and the br